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Fresh out the Dev Server: Please critique

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    InactiveMemberInactiveMember subscriber Posts: 12
    Also, the "problem" with Twilight isn`t whether he/she is a newbie, and it`s certainly not whether he/she knows anything or everything. The problem with Twilight is that he/she has given you great advice and you don`t want to hear it. From what I know, everything Twilight has told you is correct and is definitely good advice and the right advice.
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    olegoleg subscriber Posts: 13 Bronze Level Member
    The tables vs. CSS argument is a bit like arguing religion, or politics, or Microsoft vs. open-source software.  Developers tend to be passionate about it, and once someone forms an opinion about their way being "the right way," they will usually stick with that opinion to the bitter end.
    I am somewhat of a technology agnostic myself, as I don`t believe that there is a "right way" to do things.  Ultimately, the right way is whatever works the best.  You can deliver well formed, clean, browser-friendly HTML using a table layout.  You can also do it using a CSS layout.  The end result is what matters, not how you arrive at it.
    Were tables originally intended for page layouts? No. 
    Have they been used for this purpose since, well, forever? Yes!
    Are they still widely being used for this purpose? Absolutely.
    Is it the right way to do things?  Who knows, and really who cares?  Until the day when all major browsers on the market render all HTML exactly the same way, it really doesn`t matter! 
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    NuevolutionNuevolution subscriber Posts: 30 Bronze Level Member

    I`ve kind of avoided this topic until now, but I feel like I have to weigh in.Saying that you only designed a site a certain way because of the amount you received for it is ... well, I don`t have a word for it. I think if a job is worth doing, it is worth doing well ... regardless of how much someone paid for it. I have a few sites out there that cost the client $0 but are no where near anything other than my very best work. I take pride in what I do and know that everything I do is a reflection of me and the company I am building ... and this is important to me.I also see myself looking at things from a perfect world. Whether or not every browser currently supports code standards does not make a difference to me. I design for life in a perfect world and wait for Microsoft to catch up to me. To not force them to adhere just because they are microsoft ... well, the design community is not talking about it LOUDLY ENOUGH so that people will start hearing. When Internet Explorer obtains the same status as "puppy mills" and "overseas child labor", I`ll rest. But until then, I refuse to dumb down my work just because Microsoft`s browser allows me to.And yes, I know, there are add-ons that cause code to not validate, such as shopping carts, analytics, ad servers, etc. There is a really nice article about this on A List Apart ... I can`t find it, but I`ll post it later if I do. The point is, the initial template should validate. This fact is important in my perfect world and should not be taken lightly.Quite honestly, I don`t think Edgar wants to hear our comments, so I think I shall not bother on that. Good luck to you, Edgar.
    NIKOLE,Just because I charged an x amount of money doesn`t mean I didn`t do a good job. Aside from what every developer here thinks... his web site is functional... as a matter a fact as we all sit here going back and forth deciding who`s a better developer than who. The Customer, just made two sales..... TODAY...but yet we`re here trying to figure out who holds the truth or who is a better designer. NIKOLE, If it were you telling me "Hey Edgar, I think you should clean up your code" as a friend and fellow SUNNIE... I would,  listen to you out of respect. But when it`s a new Booty Like twilight, thinking they are big shots or that they posses the key to all of our problems... I don`t want to hear them... Especially with that tone... as if their poop smells like roses... See there are two things that he/she needs to learn around here "Don`t think you are the best" Im pretty sure we are over 100 developers here at SUN and never have I encountered a person like twilight... So for the record, Twilight get off your high horse... Learn from the rest of us here at SUN... and be courteous.. as for Cookiemonster.. Well ... He`s been here for awhile... Nuevolution2007-4-4 22:35:11
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    NuevolutionNuevolution subscriber Posts: 30 Bronze Level Member
    Thank you NIKOLE..One of us got paid and as a matter a fact the customer just got paid... so his reurn on investment is one more sale and he will break even. See he`s a youngster that hangs around all these import car shows.. and you know how they are... They want their car to look good. the least they care about is the dynamics of a website. But the transaction features are there. According to the Web site owner... he got all the information through pay pal and was able to Over night the packages... Mind you the web site`s only been up for no more than 24 hours.
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    InactiveMemberInactiveMember subscriber Posts: 12
    Edgar, there wasn`t anything wrong with Twilight`s tone. My comments were a lot harsher than his, and dug much deeper into the problems. By almost any objective standards, the web site is very poorly implemented whether or not it runs. You requested this critique. Everything Twilight said was well-informed, correct, and nicely presented. If you want to get angry at someone for harsh remarks, I`m the one, not Twilight.
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    NuevolutionNuevolution subscriber Posts: 30 Bronze Level Member
    Im not getting mad at anyone.. this is a conversation...and I don`t have a problem with getting feed back... If I didn`t want the feed back this posting would have never been created. Don`t you think? But there is a proper way to deliver your opinions... and that`s what I am trying to get at.. Don`t worry about me ... my feelings weren`t hurt... Like I posted earlier... there were two transactions through the web site earlier today
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    TwilightPicsTwilightPics subscriber Posts: 2
    NIKOLE, If it were you telling me "Hey Edgar, I think you should clean up your code" as a friend and fellow SUNNIE... I would,  listen to you out of respect. But when it`s a new Booty Like twilight, thinking they are big shots or that they posses the key to all of our problems... I don`t want to hear them... Especially with that tone... as if their poop smells like roses... See there are two things that he/she needs to learn around here "Don`t think you are the best" Im pretty sure we are over 100 developers here at SUN and never have I encountered a person like twilight... So for the record, Twilight get off your high horse... Learn from the rest of us here at SUN... and be courteous.. as for Cookiemonster.. Well ... He`s been here for awhile... It`s pretty obvious you can`t handle criticism, what did you expect me to say? "Oh, your site is wonderful, I should hire you for all my future projects".  No! You`re a terrible web developer, and it`s pretty sad that a "newbie" can point this out. In your very first post you hyped it up bragging about your amazing skills of coding a custom cart (which you didn`t).  To me it`s pretty obvious it`s more of a sales pitch and you`re looking for an undeserving pat on the back, rather than any real feedback.Despite the fact that the site is poorly coded, or uses tables, it`s your professionalism on this forum and towards the client that makes you a joke of a business owner.Remember, I do not correct any grammar, or typos... The customer gives me his files and I cut and paste it to the page. I am assuming he did all the corrections.Your clients must be THRILLED about working with you! You must really stand behind your quality of work!  Here`s a suggestions: either stop working for peanuts and charge what it`s worth to build a website the right way - content and all, or admit you`re an amateur and the only projects you can get are from friends and teenagers that hang out at car shows and barely have enough cash to scrape together for a website.  Maybe this should set off some alarms? Did It ever occur to you that your quality of work is limiting you to friends and those that are "worried to spend money on a REAL designer?"Act your age Edgar, you`re a grown man. [At least I think, I can`t tell your gender form your photo- maybe you should change it] You should be able to take criticism from a so called "newbie". And if because I`m a newbie and my opinion holds no weight, then you should be able to easily dispute me rather than posting your pointless rambling rebuttals referring to fecal matter and horses. What difference does it make if I`m new to the forums or not?  You`ve been here longer than me and you`re still clueless about web design.  Why are your responses more valid than mine or any other newbie who clearly has more knowledge about web design and development than you? I`m not saying I`m the best, or I know it all -you said that, but I`m not too far off from the truth if veterans on this board are agreeing with me.I`ve tried offering you some sound advice, in fact, all of us here have, but you don`t want to hear it. Your responses have a bitter ring of defeat and an unwillingness to listen. But there`s hope! There`s a community college in your area that offers some basic HTML courses, you should consider signing up! Good luck with future projects - you`re going to need all the help you can get working for $600 a site.TwilightPics2007-4-5 10:35:17
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