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Patent & Trademark Firm

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    cugelertcugelert subscriber Posts: 7
    Wow, I can`t believe I came across this thread... Although I have other postings in this forum for unrelated things, I have filed a disclosure document deposit request with the USPTO recently after getting my customer number with the Dept of Commerce for a patent.
    My international search came back with about 8 hits but only 2 that was of any threat but not much.  I`m now working with an industrial designer doing the concept design stage, and to save time, also began the market analysis.  Both are expected to be finished this month and everything is looking up.
    Next I`m suppose to hire an attorney (quoted $3,000), to prepare the patent package.  Then another $3,000 for the patent filing.  What do you think about those numbers???  I`m already into it by $6,500.
    Another patent attorney and an agent both told me that to file a patent is $500.  So am I filing a different type of patent at the rate of $3,000, or am I just over paying?
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    patentandtrademarkpatentandtrademark subscriber Posts: 103
    I`m not sure about the context of the `first use` question.  One first use that is really important in TM law is the date of first sale in interstate commerce.
    How many questions do you get to ask a lawyer when you use legal zoom?  Why use legal zoom at all instead of just opening an account with USPTO and register the trademarks yourself?
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    patentandtrademarkpatentandtrademark subscriber Posts: 103
    You can save a lot of money in the short run by NEVER hiring a lawyer.  Why not write the patent applications yourself?
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    patentandtrademarkpatentandtrademark subscriber Posts: 103
    I agree with the middle ground deal.
    When I first opened my firm, I would meet with lots of people and charge them nothing or next to nothing.  I thought it was like planting a seed for the future.  What I found was that people don`t value free advice.  I personally have NEVER gotten a long-term payoff from working for nothing - not once.  Just one man`s experience.  I work in the suburbs of Cleveland Ohio and have a lower overhead.  My hourly rate is half of what it would be if I located downtown.  In my book, that is the middle ground for me and my clients.
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    patentandtrademarkpatentandtrademark subscriber Posts: 103
    trademark registration requires a bona fide interstate commerce transaction.  suspicious transactions with a relative are not the way to go.
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    patentandtrademarkpatentandtrademark subscriber Posts: 103
    There are lots of interesting websites out there.  You can get info on doing the following activities without paying a professional to help:
    1.  making your own clothes
    2.  cutting your own hair
    3.  raising your own cattle or pigs for food, etc.
    I personally don`t want to get anywhere near these `do-it-yourself` activities.
    My experience with patents agents is:
    1.  they charge less [for some reason]
    2.  they don`t understand litigation [because they are not lawyers] or how patent claims are approached by judges
    patent agents are the nurse practitioners of the patent world.  nothing wrong with that if that is what you are looking for.  if you need surgery, go to a surgeon.  your nurse practitioner won`t cut it in that realm - trust me.
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    patentandtrademarkpatentandtrademark subscriber Posts: 103
    you might consider looking at the trademark portion of www.uspto.gov</A> for more detail.  I don`t know of one simple definition as a bona fide interstate commerce transaction varies by trade of goods, channel of trade etc..  If you would like to send me your name, address, phone and e-mail I can send you something if you would like to be more specific.  Since I am discussing this in public with a non-client whose business I don`t know, I am limited in the specifics I can provide.
    I don`t know whether SCORE will be able to give you specific legal advice. From what I understand, they are retired executives.
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    patentandtrademarkpatentandtrademark subscriber Posts: 103
    there is some vagueness in the law that simply can not be avoided.  Here is a similar question:  how few hairs can a man have before he is considered "bald"?  There just is no single universal answer to that question.  I don`t have it.  You don`t have it.  Nobody has that answer.  I deal with lots of patent and trademark cases and can [and do] give an opinion to a client in a specific context.  I realize that is a frustrating answer to casual observers.  Much of the law is like that.  There certainly are better answers and worse answers and wrong answers.  There just are no single true answers to questions as the one on the table.
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    patentandtrademarkpatentandtrademark subscriber Posts: 103
    What would be considered an ordinary kind of sale in that channel of trade?  That`s the focus.  You need more than advertising.
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    patentandtrademarkpatentandtrademark subscriber Posts: 103
    that link seems to be more directed to infringment rather than demonstrating use by the applicant.
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    patentandtrademarkpatentandtrademark subscriber Posts: 103
    thanks for the words of advice on the website.  I am upgrading that now with  http://www.nuevolutionwebdesigns.com/</A>. 
    I like your domain name.  Unfortunately, the Bar would not permit an attorney to work with a name like that because it would be considered unprofessional.  You are lucky not being an attorney in that you have fewer rules.  I don`t know if there are any USPTO rules about suggesting to potiental clients that prices for services are "dirt cheap."
    I agree that it is good for me to position myself as a lower cost professional with lower overhead.  I don`t know if there is a line to cross in attracting the wrong crowd by going overboard.  Would you go to a doctor that did dirt cheap surgery?
     
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    patentandtrademarkpatentandtrademark subscriber Posts: 103
    yes.  I view myself somewhere between the big bucks guys and the go cheap guys.  there is some legitimate question as to whether the "go cheap" option is even necessary in the stapler remover technology case.  If you know you are not going to enforce the patent, it might be best to simply put the money into more expensive marketing/distribution as opposed to a marginal patent.
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    patentandtrademarkpatentandtrademark subscriber Posts: 103
    that is true sometimes.  some of these licensees won`t take a license until there is an actual patent to license - not just something pending.  I think most licensees will also evaluate the patent to see if it is written in such a "dirt cheap" fashion that it can be invalidated or designed around.  patentandtrademark2006-9-8 9:7:13
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    patentandtrademarkpatentandtrademark subscriber Posts: 103
    There is surely a place for the "dirt cheap" service providers of the world.  In my experience, it is very limited.  This is not limited to legal services.  Personally, speaking for myself only, I just don`t want to seek out and do business with the cheapest dentist, car mechanic, webhost, or the like - even IF I only need something simple.  That`s just me.  I also don`t need to sip champagne and watch HBO in the lobby while I wait to have my oil changed.  Again, there is a middle ground. 
    I don`t eat the cheapest food, drive the cheapest car, wear the cheapest clothes, write with the cheapest pens, etc...  I personally have not had the best experience with the cheapest of ANYTHING.  Still, I do take my 5-year-old to McDonalds when I have to.  I also don`t hire a gourmet chef to cook my steaks on the grill. 
    If I was getting a divorce, or filing bankruptcy or looking into starting a corporation, I personally would NOT look for the cheapest attorney.  I would look for somebody that seemed qualified and understood the "big picture" in addition to the details of my case.  It is a valid criticism of some attorneys that they charge "too much" [though I`m not sure where that line is]. 
    It is also a valid criticism of some [and in my experience many or most] patent agents that they don`t understand licensing or litigation and thus don`t necessarily draft the best patents.  It is not realistic to expect patent agents to understand licensing or litigation and draft patents.  Why? Because they have no formal training in contract law or civil procedure.  I`m sure they have their limited role to play.
    A good patent attorney friend of mine was a patent agent that went back to law school and became an attorney after a few years of being a patent agent.  It was his experience that understanding other aspects of the law helped him write better patent applications.  I `m not sure there is much room to dispute that more and better training yields more and better ability. 
     patentandtrademark2006-9-8 14:28:34
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    patentandtrademarkpatentandtrademark subscriber Posts: 103
    Ok.  I`m not sure what we are bowing out of here but I will try to give you some general information.  I don`t know you personally or what you are trying to accomplish.  Since I am not your lawyer, I can`t give you specific advice.  Here is what I would look into:1. start selling a product with a label having a trademark on it2. follow the customs in your industry for your product in selling it3. save evidence of the sales for your product Hope this helps.  "Token sales" will not suffice.  You need honest to goodness, real life, no foolin`, down in the dirt, up in the sky, hit-me-in-the-head-with-a-hammer sales.  No trumped up, wink wink, elbow elbow, nod nod, nudge nudge, only jokin` sales will do.  I can`t make that point any clearer.  If you believe that selling 5ml of product to a relative in another state for 5 cents with a hand-written receipt qualifies as a bona fide sale, that`s what you should do.  You are your own lawyer in the matter - you decide.patentandtrademark2006-9-8 15:26:49
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